Abortion advocate describes 9-month elective abortion as “personal healthcare decision”

British outlets are extensively covering the case of Carla Foster, a woman sentenced to jail for illegally using abortion pills to abort her 32-34 week daughter.

[Read more – Abortion provider sends woman abortion pills not realizing she’s 32-34 weeks pregnant]

One pro-choice interviewer, Julia Hartley-Brewer, talked about the case with pro-abortion campaigner Janey Starling of “We Level Up.” I thought the exchange was shocking, both for what Staley was willing to defend but also for how relentless Hartley-Brewer was in her questioning. Rarely have I seen anything similar in the U.S. when journalists speak to pro-choicers. See the full exchange here and read the transcript below:

Transcript (all emphasis added):

Julia Harley-Brewer: Let’s turn our attention to that awful abortion case. Demands from many female MPs particularly yesterday and earlier this week for a change to the law on abortion. Women can be criminalized, can be sent to jail as happened this week with a 44 year old mother of three, Carla Foster. She was sentenced to 28 months behind bars on Monday, after a judge rejected pleas for leniency by the medical profession for having an abortion at almost 8 months pregnant. She used pills that were designed for use only up to 10 weeks present during one of the lockdown periods in 2020 to abort her unborn child. Well, those laws that criminalize women having an abortion beyond the 24 week legal term, they were in place since Victorian days. So should they be changed? Well let’s talk to Janey Starling, who is co-director of “We Level Up.” They’re a feminist community campaign group. Good morning dear.

Janey Starling: Good morning

JHB: Thank you very much for joining us. I mean this whole story is awful. It’s awful for the child that died. It’s awful for the family. It’s awful for the woman who’s been incarcerated. But at the end of the day, this woman knowingly deliberately killed her unborn child. Many of us would use the term “murdered” her unborn child. She didn’t need to do that. We know from her Google searches, what the judge had heard in court, that she knew what she was doing was wrong. She knew that it was against the law. Does the law need to be changed?

JS: So abortion is healthcare. You know, 1 in 3 women have had an abortion in their lifetimes. If you haven’t had one yourself, someone you love has had an abortion. And it’s time that the law treats it as healthcare. You know, as you’ve said: a woman has been sent to prison. A mother of 3 has been sent to prison on the basis of a Victorian law from 1861 that urgently needs to be removed from our lawbooks, because if we don’t decriminalize abortion in the UK, this won’t be the last case that we see. And I think if we look at what laws were around in 1861, this was 77 years before the NHS. This was before women had the right to vote.

JHB: Yeah, no I understand. It’s a very odd law. But this is the thing I find difficult. I defend the right to abortion. I’m appalled by what’s going on in America–women losing the right to abortion. But abortion isn’t just healthcare. As someone who has had a child, and as someone who lost 4 babies to miscarriage, I know what say a 12-week-old baby looks like in the womb, and I definitely know what a 33-week baby unborn in the womb looks like, and it’s a baby. At 12 weeks, it’s a baby. We accept abortion as in many cases–most of us. The country at large. And most of Europe has accepted, and most of the Western world, that abortion is often the least worst thing. It’s never a good thing. It’s the least worst thing in a scenario where an accidental pregnancy has happened where a woman just feels unable to have a baby, even for financial reasons, and I accept that right. However, there comes a point during that pregnancy where the woman’s sort of absolute right, that starts being weighed up against the child’s right to life. If you’re saying it’s just healthcare, say, you know, a week before my baby was due, would it have been okay for me to have aborted, to have killed, my now 16-year-old daughter because “Meh, it’s just healthcare”? Would that be acceptable to you? Or would that–would you not think that was a crime?

JS: It’s interesting, conversations on abortion really bring out, obviously, very emotional and personal responses–

JHB: Well it’s the life of a baby. So yes, it is emotional.

JS: It’s hugely emotional, and I’m glad we’re having this conversation–

JHB: So could you answer my question?

JS: Abortion should–regulation of abortion should be left to healthcare, and not criminal law. That is fundamentally my position and that is far–

JHB: I understand that’s your position. I understand that and I’m not sure I want this woman to be in prison. I’m not sure that’s the solution.

JS: I agree.

JHB: But should it not be against the law to kill a baby at say 6, 7, 8 months gestation? When they are completely viable, those babies would be able to live on to a happy healthy life? If I didn’t want the baby, I could abort the child. I could have had an earlier termination. Are you saying you don’t think it should be a criminal act when I was 8 months pregnant for me to abort my child?

JS: So abortion is healthcare and it’s time–

JHB: No, answer–no no, Janey, don’t just repeat the same thing. Answer the question! Because it’s a specific question. Answer the question I’ve asked you.

JS: So I think–I just believe there are far too much fixation-

JHB: No, Janey, I don’t know who else you’ve been interviewed by who accepts this! Look, you’ve got a considered view. You campaign on this issue. Answer the question! I’m 8 months pregnant. I’ve decided that I’ve changed my mind. I don’t want to have my baby. My baby is perfectly viable, it’s kicking, moving inside me, do I have the right, because it’s “just healthcare,” to abort my baby and face no criminal repercussions? Yes or no?

JS: Yes, and you should not-

JHB: Yes.

JS: -face criminal repercussions. This is a decision for you, and it’s for medical experts.

JHB: Sod the baby!

JS: I think in Carla Foster’s case we should be talking about her three children–her three born children–who the judge has decided to separate her from for a prison term. That’s going to–

JHB: Most men who go to prison have got kids too. Look I don’t think it’s ideal. I don’t think it’s the right decision. I think it’s a desperate situation. There’s lots of personal aspects here. But this is being extrapolated by groups like yours and people like you saying it shouldn’t be a criminal act because it’s “just healthcare.” I don’t think that my 8 month old baby in my womb was just a matter of healthcare. She was already a viable future human being. Do you not think there’s any point we–what about the day before she was due? What about 5 minutes before I go into labor? Is that acceptable for me to go “I’ve changed my mind. Could someone kill my baby for me please?”

JS: It’s a personal decision. It’s a personal healthcare decision. It should not be criminalized. That’s fundamentally my position. And we clearly disagree, but I do not believe that a pregnancy should be policed by criminal law.

JHB: I–I–You know, I understand a woman’s right to choose, her own body, I really do. Up to a certain point. And then it comes a point when the baby also accrues rights. I find that genuinely terrifying. And I’m going to say to you, Janey, I think that once you’ve had a child I’ve got a funny feeling you may feel differently about that.